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Debate 020: Shelli and Blair get into a heated exchange. (last entry 09/04)Shelli Rebuttal #001:Why do Atheists keep mentioning September 11th and blaming God for the attacks? God gives us free will. We choose to love or to hate! He gave us our own minds! If we allow war to happen, God has to allow it. Satan is the king of lies! He wants us all to hate God. There were several September 11th stories about how many people were inexplicably late to work that day! Come on, God had to have been there, or many more people would have perished! The towers collapsed inward instead of toppling over. Many more people would have been killed! GOD IS PRESENT EVERYWHERE AT ALL TIMES! The cross they found standing upright in the rubble! That says it all. Without the Good Lord, the country would not have found its strength to pick up and recover from such a horrible tragedy! If you don't have God in your life, how do you survive? How do you find comfort? How do you have peace? Science answers the how but not the why....but even science knows that energy has to go somewhere. It doesn't just disappear. Our souls are our energies. Our breaths of life. Our physical body is temporal. Our souls are eternal. This lifetime is just a pit stop on the way to eternity. How can you deny an all-knowing God and rely on yourself instead? How can you reject the Christ Jesus who died on the cross for the salvation of all mankind? I shall pray for you. God Bless you. Response to Shelli #001:Please allow me to address your points individually so that you understand the concepts that you are questioning.
Welcome to the world of apologetics. The problem with a monotheistic god is that the god is blamed for everything: good and evil. That was unacceptable for the Christians, so they exaggerated the role of Satan and made him responsible for evil. But that wasn't good enough in the long run because people soon figured out that if this nemesis, which was nothing more than a "fallen angel", was giving their god a run for his money. How can an all-powerful god be trumped by a simple angle? It was a theological corner that the church had painted itself into. Then came advanced apologetics and the invention of the concept of "free will." I assume that since you think you are an educated Christian that knows Christian history that you are aware that the concept of "free will" did not come about until long after the Christian religion was formed? You were aware of that, right? You were aware that it was the church that created "free will" in order to remove the blame of evil from god, right? I'm sure you knew that.
An oft-used analogy is that human beings are the children of God, who is the father. Let's say that a child is getting ready to shoot his sibling. The parent is sitting in the room and watching this take place and he or she does nothing. The parent lets the child shoot his sibling and kill him. When the police ask the parent why he or she didn't stop the child from shooting the other, the parent responds, "They have a choice. They have free will. If they decide to kill each other, I have to allow it." If the Bible-God allows evil to happen when he has the ability to stop it then that God is condoning the evil. The doctrine of "free will" is nothing more than an apologetic attempt to remove the blame of evil from your god. It is an immoral doctrine that reeks of capitulation to evil on the part of the so-called parent.
This is a rather odd concept considering it is not backed up in the Old Testament. Why Pauline Christianity pegged on Satan when it was not founded in the Torah is still somewhat of a mystery, although most realize that he didn't know the Torah very well and was a theological moron. If Satan can deceive us, then he has more power of us than your Bible-God. How can we have "free will" if Satan can manipulate us? Why can't the Bible-God manipulate us into knowing he exists? In the apologetics to eliminate the blame of evil on the Bible-God the Christians have made Satan more powerful than their "supreme being", who as we are learning, is not that supreme after all. Where is Satan mentioned in the Old Testament? And what is his role when he is mentioned? The first mention of Satan in the Bible is in 1 Chronicles 21:1, which says, “And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.” Satan convinces David to conduct a census of those “who drew the sword.” Joab, the one assigned by David to get the numbers, miscounted by two people (he purposely left out Levi and Benjamin). Because of this and the act of conducting the census, God gave David the choice of three punishments; three years of famine, three months of being defeated by his enemies or three days of “the sword of the Lord”, which was “the plague of the land, with the angel of the Lord destroying throughout all the territory of Israel.” David chose the punishment of three days and God killed 70,000 Israelites through plague and destroyed Jerusalem. Maybe it’s just me, but who did the most evil and immoral thing in this story? Satan is guilty of convincing David that he needed to know how strong his army was. God killed 70,000 people and destroyed a major city. How did God make David personally pay for the heinous sin of counting his armed forces? God made David build an altar in a building owned by a man named Ornan, who was a Jebusite. Luckily for David, Ornan the Jebusite let David have the building at no cost and he even gave David the oxen and other stuff for the sacrifice upon the altar. How is Satan the bad guy in this story? I don’t see it. This supposedly good God that Christians and Jews believe in performs the only evil deeds in this story. The next mention of Satan is in the book of Job. Satan arrives at a gathering of “the sons of the Lord” and God asks him if he has considered Job, who God seems to think is the cream of the crop of believers and those that conduct the required sacrifices at the right time and place. Satan says that if God punishes Job that Job will basically bad-mouth God. So God gives Satan permission to mess with Job. The first thing Satan does is have raiders steal his five hundred oxen and five hundred donkeys and slay the servants tending over them – leaving only one servant alive that could tell Job what happened. Then Satan burned Job’s seven thousand sheep (the messenger said it was the “fire of God from Heaven”) and killed all the servants except the one that could tell Job what happened. Then Satan sent more raiders to kill Job’s three thousand camels and all the servants tending them except one that was allowed to tell Job what happened. Then Satan sends a great wind to destroy the house of Job’s children and they were killed as the house fell on them. Job stood his godly ground and said a prayer to God at hearing this news – he wept none or was angry none – the only thing he did was shave his head and rip off his robe and prayed naked. But God wasn’t satisfied. The next time the “sons of the Lord” convene God gives Satan permission to mess with Job directly – to harm his physical body but not kill him. So Satan gives Job boils over his entire body. Okay, so again, where is the evil coming from in this story? Satan is doing the dirty work, but he’s doing it at the behest of God and with his full permission. Satan is not God’s archrival in Job – Satan is God’s helper; the Godfather’s hit man out on a contractual hit. Another mention of Satan comes in Psalm 109:6, but in many translations the word is “an accuser” and not Satan. The majority of the Bible dictionaries and scholar notes list this as “an adversary” – not as Satan. The next mention of Satan is in Zechariah 3:1-2, which is where the Lord actually rebukes Satan and says that Jerusalem rebukes Satan. There is no mention of “Devil” in the Old Testament (KJV). The only mention of “Lucifer” is in Isaiah 14:13 (KJV), which is where Lucifer is the name of the Day Star – not the name of Satan or the Devil. Satan is often attributed with the Original Sin and the downfall of humans from the Garden of Eden and the Tree of Knowledge. Yet nowhere in Genesis does it say that Satan was the serpent. Satan is never mentioned in the Garden of Eden or in the story of the Original Sin. The bottom line is that the church could not blame their "loving" God for acts of terrorism (both natural and man-made). They had to have a scapegoat to blame all the evil on. Satan was transformed by the early Christian church from God's right-hand-man into the alter ego of God with the same power and abilities. Satan became a god and Christianity became a polytheistic religion. Of course you'll never get a Christian to admit that Satan is a deity.
You can't be serious? Do you know how many people work in the WTC? Do you know on a daily basis how many of those people arrive late? If you've ever been to the NYC area (I have) you would know that thousands of people are late to work every day because of traffic jams, train delays, accidents, etc. The same amount of people that were late to work that day is the same amount that is late to work on any other NYC workday. The other issue is that many people are on alternate work schedules. Many companies stager their employee work times in order to reduce traffic jams and congestions. Some start at 8 and others at 9. Those that started work at 9 that day never made it to work because they attack occurred between 8 and 9. If it were truly godly intervention then the attack would have occurred before 8 - so that no one was in the building. Besides, you can't have it both ways. Does god intervene or not? You said he couldn't be accused of not stopping it because we have "free will" and allow it to happen. Then you entertain the idea that god made people late. If he can intervene in making people late to work, then that is not "free will". You are contradicting yourself. You are giving your god credit for making people late - but refuse to give him credit for letting the tragedy occur in the first place. You have, like many before you, painted yourself into a theological corner. You have placed the blame of evil onto man through "free will" and taken god's hands out of the picture. Then you put god's hands back into the picture when it comes to good. Either your god can intervene or he can't. Which one is it? Does god intervene or does he allow humans to have "free will"? You can't have it both ways.
And if you knew anything about physics and architecture you would know why that occurred. In order to topple the towers, you would have to hit them near street level. You can't fly an airplane along the street to hit the WTC on the 14th floor. Again, are you giving god credit for making the tower collapse inward? If you are then you are saying that your god intervenes to save lives. If he did this, then you are also admitting that he failed to intervene in the first place and stop the tragedy from happening.
So we don't have free will. Thanks for clearing that up.
It was actually leaning at a 45-degree angle, but we'll forgive you of that bit of ignorance. What geometric form do you think they built the WTC out of? The T-bar was the most predominant geometric pattern in the construction of the WTC. That means that they found a lot of lower case t's strewn throughout the rubble. Only one, which happened to be sitting at a 45-degree angle, caught the attention of Christians. Christians were desperate for some reassurance that god was there - they were ready to latch onto anything that helped them put aside the doubts they were having and their questioning of the "will of god." If you must latch onto the lower case t, which was the predominant geometric shape, then so be it. As to a testament to some god being there... you're just pulling at straws.
What you should really say is, "Many people would not have recovered so quickly from the effects of the 9/11 faith-based terrorist attacks if it had not been for the psychological need that religion, any religion, filled for many people. This was especially true for those that have a hard time accepting reality and need a make-believe religious world to feel better about what happens and to explain away the acts of man as "evil." Sure religious beliefs helped some people recover. But to give credit solely to your god is really egotistical of you. The Muslims in this country turned to their god to help them heal. The Buddhists turned to meditation to help them heal. The Hindus turned to Vishnu to help them heal. The Wiccans turned to Mother Earth and The Goddess to help them heal. It wasn't any god that helped people - it was the calming effect that religious rites have on people - the biological reaction to prayer, meditation, trance, biofeedback, etc.
I survive the same way that you do. I live in a house to protect me from the environment. I go to the grocery store to buy food and water to sustain me. Certainly you are not suggesting that you can survive without these; that only God allows you to survive? Are you willing to quit your job, sell your house, sell your clothes, sell your car and then give all your money away so that you are homeless, have no vehicle, are jobless, and have no money? Then see if you can survive on God alone. You survive because YOU do the work. You get a job, you buy the groceries, you tend the house, etc. When something good happens you give your Bible-God the credit instead of giving yourself a pat on the back for doing the work. When something bad happens then what do you do? You blame yourself. This goes back to this so-called "free will" that you claim we all of us has. If we truly have "free will" then you must give yourself credit for everything: both the good and the bad. You cannot give your Bible-God credit for the good if you truly have "free will."
See the following sections of Atheism Awareness to answer that question: Atheists have no meaning to life and Where do you turn for strength in times of crisis?
What proof and evidence do you offer to back up this claim that our energy is our soul?
Can you force yourself to believe in pink unicorns and Leprechauns? Can you force yourself to believe in Bigfoot and the Loch Ness Monster? Why not? You can't force yourself to believe in these things because you have seen no proof. So why do you believe in a god? Why do you believe in a god that is so contradictory and evil and based on a book full of errors and contradictions? I guess what it boils down to is that I don't need the psychological crutch of a god like you do.
Can you prove that Jesus died on the cross or that he even existed?
If you must. I'll let you in on a little secret; prayer doesn't work. There are tons of people that have prayed for me, are praying for me and will pray for me. I'm still an atheist and I have yet to see any proof of your god or any other version of mankind's gods. I don't ask for much. All I need if for the invisible man to come down and sit at my kitchen table and have a conversation with me. Yep, that'd be all that I need to accept that a god exists - no matter which religion makes the claim. In the meantime, get on your knees and grovel if you must. If that makes you feel better then more power to you - I hope you're happy. Shelli Rebuttal #002:Your views absolutely make no sense. We can have free will and divine intervention at the same time. Apparently, you only believe in what you can see. Don't compare earthly parents in every way to an all-knowing God, who is far more powerful than Satan ever will be. Jesus Christ has already defeated Satan. The God in the Old Testament is slightly different than the God in the New Testament. He sent his only begotten Son into the world to save our souls from eternal hell, which is where all humankind belongs. However, because of the crucifixion and resurrection, our sin debts have been paid in full. I find it odd that you seem to believe in the stories of a "so-called evil God" in the Old Testament but then refuse to believe that Jesus Christ ever existed. A man who was completely without sin. So you believe the bad but not the good? That is ignorance. God does not or has ever condoned evil. Why do you think he sent Jesus to Earth for our salvation if he did not love us? Do you actually believe the complexities of this universe are completely random? How can life create itself if a house can't even build itself? So, I guess atheists sit and wait for the trees to chop themselves up and construct a house for them? There has to be a blueprint for everything that is created, and there has to be a creator. How can you look at the beauty of nature and not see God in everything? Come on. Common sense. Every person has their destiny laid out before they are even born. God frames them, we add the colors to the palette. Sorry, this is not a perfect world. Bad things happen to good people, and good things happen to bad people. But God is in absolute control of everything. He knows where everyone is going to end up. Everything happens for a reason. If God did not allow bad things to happen, how could we grow as people? How would we mature? How would we become stronger and wiser? Even earthly parents have to allow their children to make mistakes. Although, God is infinitely wiser and far beyond our understanding. Atheists, in their stubbornness and foolishness, are simply rebelling against an authority they simply can't understand. So, they have to try to explain things away scientifically. Face it, you all know deep down inside there is a God. Stop the insurrection, or you will learn the truth the hard way. Prayer does work, by the way, for people who love, trust, and give their lives to the Good Lord. I am living proof of that. Atheists are not heard by God. He doesn't know you. If you shove him out of your life, you are out from under His wings of protection. And we wonder why this world is going to hell? No one wants to live by God's rules anymore, but yet everyone wants to go to Heaven. Except for the atheists, who do not care. What part of "Thou shalt not" don't you understand? Remember, God gave Moses the Ten Commandments, one of which is "Thou shalt not kill". Doesn't sound like an evil God to me. If everyone followed these ten simple rules of love and moral behavior, there would be less violence, less disease, less hatred. You can't argue with that. So, with your frail views and misconceptions about so many things, you have failed to convince me there is no Almighty Creator watching us from afar. I will pray for your salvation. God Bless you. Hmmmmmmmmm. Atheists say the Bible is full of errors and contradictions. That may be because MEN wrote it through their own interpretations. Who else is prone to error but humankind? The Bible cannot all be taken literally. People may read it front to back and have so many interpretations of it. The 66 books of the Bible were written by several different wise men. God is perfect, but men aren't. The truth, however, cannot be changed. You atheists can explain things away as scientifically and logically as you please. However, what do you do when you can't explain something with practical knowledge? Fill in that gap. Why was the universe created? Face it, the thinking of atheists is VERY limited. The Bible isn't just about the stories. It is about the moral teachings of a loving, faithful, Almighty God who created us to have fellowship with Him. If you want evidence of what happens when you don't follow His teachings, just look at human history for a good reference. God does not MAKE anybody kill. God does not kill anyone. Those are Satan's lies. MEN choose to be good or evil. People need to stop blaming God for everything and start taking responsibilities for their OWN actions. Men can be just as evil today as they were thousands of years ago. If it is not good, it is NOT of God. If you have hate in your heart, you are NOT of God. If you are NOT of God, you are ALREADY dead. So stop dwelling on the Old Testament stories of a vengeful, wrathful God who wanted to punish His unruly, evil children, and focus entirely on His loving guidelines for a happy, healthy, abundant life on this Earth. GOD IS LOVE! If everyone would just stop thinking of "me, myself, and I" all the time, this would be a much better world in which to live. Start with the TEN COMMANDMENTS (which belong in the public schools), please! In conclusion, for those who do not believe that free will and divine intervention cannot both happen (again, limited thinking), they can. God does not directly interfere with our free will, but He can protect us from any harm or danger that may accompany any choices that we make. Example: a person who chooses to drive while intoxicated, ends up in a potentially fatal car accident, and walks away without a scratch (from a scientific point of view, he absolutely should have died as others in the exact same situation have in the past). God Bless. God says, "My ways are not your ways. My thoughts are not your thoughts." All he asks of us is to trust Him and not to worry about understanding everything that He does. Response to Shelli #002:
If the divine intervenes in our lives, then our choices are irrelevant. If the divine intervenes then we do not have free will. You cannot have it both ways - either we have free will or we live under divine intervention. If god has the power to intervene and does not - then he is guilty. If god cannot intervene - then he is impotent. Either way, he is not worthy of worship - even if he exists.
Using the term 'believe' loosely, I believe what can be proven. You?
It wasn't a comparison - it was an analogy. Regardless, I will compare your Bible-God to earthly parents. The bottom line is that your Bible-God, as a "parent," is a complete failure. He purposely kills his children. He lets his children die when he has the capability to stop their death. He lets his children become ill and diseased when he has the ability to stop it. The Bible-God would be thrown in jail for child abuse and child negligence if he weren't a pretend character in a fairy tale book.
Why did Satan need to be defeated by Jesus? Is your Bible-God so impotent that he couldn't beat Satan? Didn't you say that your Bible-God was more powerful than Satan? It sounds to me like Satan is kicking your Bible-God's arse. But why did Satan need defeating in the first place? I think the only thing you know about Satan is what you hear in church from your mythology teacher, I mean preacher. Let's take a Satan pop quiz.
So God evolved? Or is he a different god altogether?
So everyone that lived before Jesus is in Hell? If Jesus is the only way to Heaven - then everyone that lived before Jesus didn't even have a chance of making it. Abraham, Job, Lott, Solomon, Adam and everyone else all went to Hell because they never knew Jesus. Babies that die before going to church go to Hell because they don't know Jesus. Feral children raised without knowledge of Jesus go to Hell because they don't know Jesus. Mentally retarded children and grown-ups go to Hell because they can't understand the concept and don't know Jesus.
So basically you've skirted all your responsibilities off on Jesus. You can do whatever you want and it's okay because Jesus died for your sins and you are forgiven. How is that doctrine moral?
Why do you think I believe in the stories? Oh, you mean you don't get sarcasm and reference? Oh, my bad. Allow me to put it in black and white since you don't understand referencing: I don't believe in your Bible-God. I don't believe in your Bible-Satan. I don't believe in your Bible-Jesus. I don't believe in Adam and Eve, the Global Flood, the Burning Bush, the Exodus, the Virgin Birth, the resurrection or the Second Coming. The Bible is a book of allegories, fables and legends, written by men. I don't refuse to believe that Yeshua existed. There is no evidence to prove that he did, so I don't believe that he did at this time. If evidence were to present itself, then I would rethink that position. You do realize that Christ is a title and not a last name, right? It should be the Christ Jesus or Jesus the Christ. It's a shame that atheists know more about Christianity then Christians do. Of course that's why we're atheists - we know more about Christianity.
No, that would be stupidity - not ignorance. What is stupid is coming away from my last email thinking that I believed in the "bad God." Ignorance is a lack of information - one is ignorant when they do not have all the information - like you when it comes to the information about Christianity and Christian theology.
Really? Remember what I said about your ignorance? Let's just start with one example: Job. Who do you think sent Satan to mess with Job? Who do you think gave Satan the guidelines in how to mess with Job? Who do you think told Satan to step it up and increase the pain and suffering to Job? I would suggest that you read Job and see who the real evil villain is in that story.
Why did it take him so long? If your Bible-God is so powerful, surely he knew what was going to happen. If he did, then why waste all that time? Why the Global Flood where he killed all of mankind (save a family) and all of the animal kingdom (save two of each species)? Why all the torture, killing and mayhem? Was God just getting his evil-doing out of his system?
Yes. You actually believe that an invisible man in the sky created the Earth in six days to include only two humans. You believe that this all-powerful being lacked the foresight to create Eve right away because he should have known that Adam would be bored. You believe that this all-powerful being couldn't find Adam & Even in the garden after they ate from the apple tree; that he had to wander around looking for them? You really believe that?
As much as Christians love strawman arguments, you'd think their God was a Sacred Scarecrow. If you don't know what a strawman argument is, then you shouldn't be debating.
So, I guess Christians sit and wait for their God to do it for them? No? Oh yeah, they have to do it themselves because their God doesn't exist. Please explain how the analogy between a house and a life works. What aspects of a house are comparable to a life form? What part of a house lives and breathes and reproduces? Man obvioiusly intelligently designs a house - we can see it being built. Have you seen your Bible-God build a life form? Have you witnessed this building so you can positively say that it is intelligently designed? I can prove a house is intelligently designed - can you prove that life is?
Let me rephrase that sentence for you so that it speaks the truth. "There has to be a creator of everything because I want there to be. I'm too scared of my own mortality so I need a Creator to give me purpose and make death less scary for me."
Oh... so we don't have Free Will, then. It's good to know that you agree with me that we don't have free will. I don't agree with the whole destiny thing, but at least we agree that free will is a fraud invented by apologists to take the blame of evil off of their god.
We're not talking about minor things here. We're not talking about letting your teenage son learn his lesson about women the hard way. We're talking about the wonton destruction of human lives. We are talking about major catastrophes and disasters. When people are killed by evil acts and they are killed by "acts of God" (AKA natural disasters) then how do they grow? They're dead - they can't grow and mature. The bottom line is that you have now admitted that your Bible-God lets it happen. He knows about it and lets it happen. Your Bible-God has foreknowledge of a crime, a murder, a catastrophe, a disaster and he lets it happen. Your Bible-God is responsible.
Um... didn't you reprimand me for using that analogy? As I said above, making mistakes is one thing; killing people is another. The parents that let their children die with full knowledge are guilty under our legal system. Parents that kill their children are guilty under our legal system. If your Bible-God allows death to occur, especially on the scale of natural disasters and events like 9/11, then he is guilty of aiding and abetting known criminals, criminal negligence, accessory to the fact and many other charges - both federal and state criminal charges.
You'd like to think that, wouldn't you? If that's the case then why are you emailing me and going through all this trouble? If we all know deep down inside that there is a God, then we're not really atheists? If that is the case, then we recognize God and we get to go to Heaven. So why are you wasting your time?
Prove it.
The more and more we talk the more and more we find out that your Bible-God is not all that powerful and not all that knowing. You make your Bible-God sound like an incompetent nincompoop.
Have you ever read the entire Bible? I don't think you have. Soon after the delivery of the Decalogue, God sends Moses on a killing rampage to destroy an entire tribe. God tells Moses to kill everyone except for virgin girls - they are to be taken as wives. They kill men, women and children. What part of "Thou shalt not kill" does your Bible-God not understand?
And yet in every historical instance of a Christian theocracy, where the Decalogue was followed as you suggest, the society failed and failed miserably. The society ended in bloodshed and destruction. The strict adherence to the Decalogue causes societies to fail. Let's look at the Decalogue and see how they'll work in society if they are adhered to strictly as you suggest. I Thou shalt have no other gods before me. It's interesting to note that it doesn't say, "There are no other gods." Yahweh is basically saying that there are other gods out there - he just wants to be the number one god - the Zeus of Judaism. Anyway, what would you have those people of other religions do in your society? Will you force non-Christians to become Christians? This commandment cannot work under our Constitution and is in direct violation of our freedom of religion. What does this commandment have to do with love or moral behavior? Are you suggesting that only Christians are moral people? II Thou shalt not worship false idols or make graven images... blah blah blah... What does this have to do with love and moral behavior? Are you suggesting that Buddhists are immoral? Are you prepared to get rid over everything that people worship and to disregard religious freedom? III Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain. Again, what does this have to do with love and moral behavior? Are you suggesting that we get rid of freedom of speech? IV Remember the Sabbath... Christians violate this law every Sunday. The Sabbath, as recognized in the OT, starts Friday night and ends Sunday morning. The Sabbath is on Saturday - not Sunday. So every Saturday that you work you are violating the fourth commandments. Every Sunday that you go to church you are violating the fourth commandments. Do you know where the idea of a Sunday Sabbath came from? It wasn't the Bible. The Sunday Sabbath came from a bunch of men in 325 CE at the Council of Nicea. Yep, a bunch of men overrode your Bible and moved the Sabbath to another day - a day not sanctioned by your Bible-God. Of course we'll have to stop everything on Sunday - no working at all if we are to follow this strictly. Electricity will be shut off because workers can't man the power stations. Hospitals, rescue squads, police stations and other emergency services will be shut down - so if anyone is injured on Sunday - it's in God's hands. But that's okay, because you said above that everything happens for a reason, so if God allows people die on his Sabbath - then so be it. Who are we to question his evil acts? Of course we'll have to worry about criminals because the corrections officers will be home on Sunday and no one will be guarding the prisoners. We'll have to stay at home and won't be able to go anywhere because nothing will be open - no gas stations, no stores, no supermarkets, no train stations, no airports, no bus terminals, no fast food joints. That means you can't enjoy that Sunday buffet at Sizzler or Golden Corral anymore - the waiters, waitresses and cooks will be at home. Then there are the economic impacts of not allowing work on Sunday. 8 hours of lost wages each week for those people struggling to make ends meet. 8 hours of lost income for businesses and communities. 8 hours of lost taxes for governments. That's a lot of money (in the billions) each Sunday that we stay home in our dark houses with no TV or radio - no electricity or natural gas - nothing. What does this one have to do with love and moral behavior? V Honor thy father and thy mother... That's okay to live by, but parents aren't always honorable and sometimes they don't deserve honor. Will we force children to honor their parents if their parents abuse them physically, mentally or sexually? Will we force the 13yo girl to stay and honor her father that sneaks into her room every night to molest her? Yeah, I guess we will since we want everyone to obey these commandments. We'll let a few live a life of horror so that the Christians can have their theocratic way. VI Thou shalt not kill. Great rule to live by, but it's not original. Long before the Decalogue societies were striving for this. Of course if we adhere to it strictly... We get rid of the death penalty. We get rid of our military because a nation that doesn't kill has no reason for a military - either defensive or offensive. We stop the slaughter of animals and all become vegetarians. Of course God gives us plenty of reasons to kill even with this law, doesn't he? Why bother with this law if God is going to give us a bunch of reasons to kill, anyway? Women that are seduced by men other than their husbands are to be killed. Prostitutes are to be killed. Women who practice black magic are to be killed. Strangers (non-Christians and infidels) that enter the temple are to be killed. Children that disobey are to be killed. People that work even the simplest task on the Sabbath are to be killed. Of course there's plenty more, but why continue. With all the reasons to kill people, seems rather silly to have commandments number 6. So we have a contradiction - we can't kill, but we're given reasons to kill. We don't need this one, anyway - we have laws against murdering. Laws against murdering existed before the Decalogue. VII Thou shalt not commit adultery. Ok, I can see this for married people - makes sense. This doesn't have much to do about love. Just because one doesn't have an affair doesn't mean one loves their significant other. Many people hate each other but feel too guilty to have an affair. As for moral behavior... are those that have affairs more likely to commit a crime? How do we reconcile this in our new Ten Commandments following society that you've schemed up? Because of number 4 we can't kill adulterers, even thou the Bible tells us to (at least the woman, anyway). I guess we'll have to set up house monitors and track everyone so we know if they are copulating outside their marital bed. Yep, so much for civil rights - we have to track everyone to know if they are being faithful or not. VIII Thou shalt not steal. Ok, I can see the morality in this one, but it was a law long before the Decalogue in other societies. What took the Jews and the Bible-God so long to catch up to the rest of civilized society? To make this happen we'll have to really step up either our prisons or our social justice and social action. We'll have to get rid of all the homeless and hungry - we don't want those people stealing apples from the farmer or a bottle of formula for their starving babies living in a cardboard box. IX Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor. AKA: Thou shalt not lie. I guess the love thing works a little bit, and maybe the morality a bit - but not enough to really justify 100% compliance. Sometimes lying is okay, though and sometimes it is even necessary. Compassion leads to a lot of lying - we lie about a medical patient's condition so they feel better. We lie about how someone looks so that we don't insult him or her. We lie about how precious that really ugly baby looks so the parents don't feel bad. Well, so much for the politicians - I guess we'll lose a representative government... Actually, I think I'm inclined to agree with you on number 9 - I think a brutally honest world would be awesome. Imagine how much fun it will be to finally tell that really ugly kid down the street, "Dude, you are one ugly kid." Or when our wives ask, "Honey, does this make me look fat?" We can say, "Sweetie, everything makes you look fat because you are fat." And we can be brutally honest because God told us not to lie - under any circumstances. X Thou shalt not covet... blah blah blah Well, so much for capitalism. I guess we'll have to move over to socialism or communism. Christian Communism - has a nice ring to it, doesn't it? Why would I covet my neighbor's ox, anyway? I have a nice car to drive - he can keep his ox. Of course in a non-coveting society I wouldn't have that car - we'd both have an ox. Um... what does this one have to do with love and moral behavior?
I wasn't trying to convince you that there was no almighty creator. You were the one that contacted me trying to convince me that there was one. I was just responding. I'm still waiting for the proof.
You and a thousand others. It doesn't bother me - so pray away. I don't mind if you waste your time.
Are you fully admitting that the Bible is not the "Word of God," but is instead the work of men attempting to interpret the world around them and their belief in their god? Are you admitting that the Bible is full or errors, contradictions and inconsistencies? If this is the case, then how do you reconcile what parts of the Bible to believe and what parts not to believe? How can you tell what is authentic and what is not?
So how do you know what parts are to be taken literally and what parts are not? What if you choose wrong and follow something as an allegory that should be literal or vice versa? You'd think that an all-powerful god would ensure that the Bible and Apocrypha were easy enough to understand that people would get it without having to interpret it. For an "all-knowing" guy he doesn't seem that smart, especially considering the source: the Buy Bull.
Well, unlike the theist, we don't go off the deep end and proclaim that some invisible man is behind everything we can't explain. There are many unexplained things, but nothing is unexplainable. Christians fail to see that difference. They immediately say, "God did it," whenever they can't explain something right away. The logical person, the person that uses reason, will look for a valid explanation and try to understand the phenomenon. It is for this reason that science has advanced as much as it has. Can you imagine if Benjamin Franklin had simply left the "God did it" explanation for the phenomenon of lightning? Can you imagine if Thomas Edison had left the "God did it" explanation alone and never messed with filaments and wiring? Can you imagine if the Wright brothers had listened to their local preacher when he said, "If God had meant man to fly he would have given him wings"? It is the willingness of many men and women throughout history to throw out the "God did it" lunacy and to really analyze what is going on and to discover the true nature of the phenomenon. The supernatural becomes the natural as explanations are found and an understanding of the event is reaches. What if scientists like Bruno, Galileo, Newton and others had listened to the church and their "God did it" version? We would still be living on a flat earth that was the center of the solar system and the sky would be a filament instead of an atmosphere and stars would be pinpricks in the curtain of the filament.
I'll face it when you prove it. The only limited thinking I've seen is from your end.
You just described almost every sacred text of most religions. There's nothing wrong with looking for the good and moral lessons in the teachings of all religions and philosophies. But when people leave the morality behind and embrace the literalism that is when bigotry and ignorance are born.
When I look at history what I see is a bunch of bloodthirsty religious people destroying the world because they swear that their God is coming back or that they are doing the work of their God. You are right, when you follow "his teachings" then you end up in a world of bloodshed.
LOL! You can't be serious? Have you even read the Bible? There are hundreds of examples of God making people kill and God killing people. What Bible are you reading? Are you reading the Kindergarten version with all the nice pictures and violence and sexuality removed?
So Satan wrote the Bible?
Here! Here! I agree. We need to stop blaming god and stop giving god credit where it is not do. People need to take responsibility for their own actions; good or bad. We need to smack Pat Robertson on the face when he blames God for 9/11 because God removed "the hand of protection" - instead we need to put the blame where it is supposed to be - on the faith-based terrorists that were doing their god's bidding. We need to stop blaming god for saving a baby in a tornado when it was the physics and architecture of the building that saved the baby and killed the baby's family. I'm with you on this one!
Well, you just emptied out at least 50% of the churches in America if you insisted on that.
So I should forget about the evil actions of someone and only focus on the good they did? I should forget about the murderer and remember the time that he hugged his son before he killed his son? I should forget that the rapist raped hundreds of women and remember how much he loved his mother? That is the most ludicrous thing I've ever heard anyone suggest. Christians have been trying to separate themselves from the OT God for a long time because they recognize the evil nature of their Bible-God in the OT.
Unless you don't love him back - then he's everything but love.
How do you think they will affect public schools? Christian schools still deal with crime - so if the Decalogue can't even cure the ills of Christian schools then what makes you think it will cure public schools? It sounds to me like Christians aren't accepting responsibility for their own actions. Instead of taking the blame for their evil children they want the school to take the blame because "it doesn't post the Ten Commandments." If Christians taught their children at home then there wouldn't be a need for it in public schools. Right? Or are you suggesting that the Ten Commandments are powerless and meaningless?
If you can step out of your limited thinking and prove it then we can talk. But if all you can offer is "they can" and stick your tongue out and go "nah nah boo boo" then you're not going to even make a dent in rational thought.
If he intervenes then he nulls and voids our free will. It is through free will that we get into those situations and free will that we get out. If he intervenes then we no longer have free will because we are no longer making the choices. Either we have free will or we don't. If you admit that he can intervene and save our lives, then he is guilty of not doing it on many examples, such as 9/11.
The only thing this is a good example of is theistic nonsense and ignorance and the willingness to declare, "God did it," without looking into the cause. Scientists in now way think that drunk drivers should have died. We know why they don't die. They are so relaxed that their bodies are fluid-like during the physics of the car crash. It is a known fact that people that are relaxed escape car wrecks all the time. The drive will often be injured or dead, but the sleeping passengers come out unscathed. It has nothing to do with God and everything to do with muscle tension and relaxation during strenuous physics. Instead of throwing in "God did it" just because you don't understand something, why don't you actually do some research and educate yourself? You’ll be an atheist in no time. Shelli Rebuttal #003:You obviously do not understand Christianity at all. Trying to describe the peace of God to someone who has never experienced it is like describing a color to them that they have never seen. God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit--all the same thing. I cannot imagine living my life without God. I have overcome child abuse, serious depression, eating disorders, date rape, school taunting, and I am so much stronger and wiser than I have ever been. I forgive my father, and I still honor him by acknowledging that he is my father. However, I choose not to have a relationship with him. I forgive the guy who got drunk and sexually assaulted me, but I choose to be his friend no longer. I forgive the people who have made fun of me over the years because I am an intelligent, gifted person. Why harbor resentment and anger? There is no point. Without God's grace, I could not have survived these ordeals. It is a miracle I am still here. So, please don't call me ignorant of anything. Prayers have helped me a lot. I AM LIVING PROOF THAT IT WORKS. Imagine if someone in your family had gone through all this trauma. You fear the worst for them. What do you do if you cannot lean on a higher power than yourself? What kind of comfort can you possibly have if you have no assurance that there is a higher power than yourself in absolute control of everything? My life was IN DANGER! I was practically a DEAD WOMAN! I WAS SKIN AND BONES. MY SPIRIT WAS DYING. Unless you experience these kinds of things yourself, you have no idea about the true power of the Good Lord Above. His thoughts are not ours, his ways are not ours. This is a physical world where nothing or no one is going to be perfect. What IS perfect is God's Kingdom in eternity. If Earth was perfect, Earth would be Heaven. There would be no need for a Savior. If you hear the gospel of Christ and do not accept it, you will be separated from God forever. As for me, I put God first in my life, I do not swear falsely by His name, I do not steal, I do not murder, I do not spread rumors, I do not have sex outside of marriage (and I am still single), I honor my father and mother, I do not envy what other people have (I focus on being the best I can be), and well, every day is a Sabbath for me (I am constantly worshipping the Lord, even as I work). I am blessed! Imagine that! Having gone through all that hell on Earth, I still consider myself truly blessed! THAT IS TRUE STRENGTH AND GRACE! I could be angry and bitter about life and diss God like a lot of people do, but I don't! HE IS THE REASON WHY I AM HERE! There are so many other stories out there like this, too. Instead of slandering Christianity and the Bible, why don't you investigate some of these stories and the people behind them? They will definitely give you a different perspective on life. There is a whole lot more to life than what you can see. You just can't find reason with everything. Atheists have SO much more to learn. Get out of your cardboard boxes, stop lingering on the surface, and dive into the more profound truths beneath the surface. Make sure you have enough oxygen. It is a LONG way down. GOD BLESS.
I WILL NEVER, EVER BE AN ATHEIST! You are in the minority in this country. This is "one nation under God", and that is how it will always be! Regarding your comment about my "religion prozac", medicine may heal the body but not the soul. It takes a hell of a lot more to fix a broken spirit. Unless you have been that low, you can't even imagine what it is like. So I find that comment really offensive. Christianity is a "walk with the Lord". Plain and simple. You will face your day of judgment when you leave this place. Believe me, I wouldn't want to be in your shoes. God Bless you. You need it. By the way, who officiates at an atheist's wedding (2 words that never should go together, like gay priest), the mailman? It isn't a real marriage if there is no man of the cloth to perform the ceremony, uniting a man and woman in HOLY matrimony. Otherwise, we would all be married to our first grade crushes when we "played wedding" in our backyards. How does it feel to know your marriage is just a piece of paper given to you by the state to acknowledge that you just said a couple words to the other person, agreeing to be his or her spouse? What a joke. If you are not a believer in the Creator, don't make a mockery of a sacrament. If there is no God in your life, there is no marriage. Husbands and wives are united to serve the Lord and each other and to train up their children in His ways. That is what the Bible says. Also, on a different note, I will chalk up my paranormal experiences to be a figment of my very active "limited" imagination. I guess everyone's bedroom door just opens by itself in front of their very eyes when no one is around.....and all windows are closed. Well, rational thought tells me, "Hey, the wood was once a tree, and trees are alive." That explains it! LMAO. What about strange footsteps when no one is around? How about an invisible tap on the shoulder? Since my grandfather died, my grandmother's phone rings once every night at the same time (around 2 A.M.) Explain it....... There are countless other stories like this out there. So are we all just looney....and you atheists aren't? Response to Shelli #003:Everything you have said reinforces the idea that some people have a psychological need for religious belief. That's okay - it's what you need and that helps to stabilize you. Religion is your Prozac and I support you in your quest for stability: even if it means belief in a god to give you a warm fuzzy. Most people that proselytize to me seem to be ex-drug addicts, ex-abuse victims, ex-rape victims that have "seen god's love." That's not a coincidence. These people NEED religion in their lives to give them psychological balance and to feel needed and welcome. That's okay. I wish you the best in your religious Prozac.
Actually you were an atheist when you were a baby. You lacked a belief in gods. It wasn't until you were indoctrinated into religion by your parents and peers that you stopped being an atheist. So you can drop the "never" from your statement. You need religion in your life for stabilization and that's okay. More power to you.
Yes, we are one minority in this country. Christianity is losing ground every year in America as immigrants bring their own religions into this country and make us a truly pluralistic society. Hinduism, Paganism, Islam, atheism, Buddhism, Unitarian Universalism, Judaism, and many others are on the rise. As of last year atheist comprised 14% of the American population, which is roughly 27 million atheists in the United States. When you add the other religions, then Christianity is now just above 60%. You're losing your ranks and may not be the majority much longer. I have to admit that I look forward to the day when the pluralistic nature of religion in America truly makes it a religiously free nation and separation of church and state is no longer under attack by the "majority mob" that is called Christianity.
Well, that's been the official motto since the 1950's, anyway. Can you please quote me the part in the United States Constitution that says that?
You obviously let your anger prevent you from understanding what I was saying. Instead of taking medicine, you are using religion to accomplish the same thing. You are using "religious Prozac" instead of taking pills. You are using religion to calm you down and to appease your fears and anxieties. You are not alone. If that is what makes you feel better, then more power to you.
I've been low and I've known people that have been that low and lower. That is why I hold no animosity against those that use religion as a form of "spiritual Prozac" (is that better?). They need it and it helps them cope - so, as I said before, more power to them.
That's probably because you misunderstood what I was saying, but nonetheless, I apologize for offending you. You are using religion as a means to cope with your past bad experiences and dreadful life that you have led. I'm sorry that you had to go through all that. It's a shame that such things have to happen to people. If you need religion to cope with those past experiences, then I support you. Instead of seeking a doctor and taking Prozac, you are using religion as your Prozac. You are using religion to help you deal with your past issues and events.
Yeah, I'm going to have a lot of explaining to do to Zeus. He's really going to be pissed that we think he's nothing more than a mythological creature. Of course I'll really be bummed if I have to explain myself to Zoroaster. Or even worse, what if I have to explain myself to Mithras? Mithras is even worse than your Bible-God!
He's called a Justice of the Peace, and is an official representative of the state in which you are getting married.
A wedding and a religious wedding are two separate things. Civilizations were uniting couples to live together before Christian marriage came around. Pagans married, Buddhists married, Confucians married. They may not have called it "marriage," but the concept was the same - uniting two people that loved each other to live together and raise children together. The idea of monogamy was viewed as better for the society. Religion hijacked the concept after it was developed by societies.
That's pretty funny considering that Christianity was one of the biggest proponents of marrying girls after their first menstrual cycle so that they could "go forth and bear fruit."
I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but you have the same piece of paper. It doesn't matter if you get married in the church or not, you still have to have a marriage license. You can get married in the church and it isn't legal unless you have the marriage license. The state has granted authority to some ministers to officiate the license, but most couples have to apply for their license and present it to their minister before the wedding takes place. The ministerial wedding has no legal foundation on its own. You cannot do your taxes as a married couple unless you have a marriage license. So if you think that the piece of paper is a joke, then it only displays your ignorance of the subject matter.
Why not? I have every right to mock it, poke fun of it, ridicule it, criticize it and otherwise show it for the silliness that it is. Just as you have every right to do the same to atheism. The difference between us is that I respect your right to ridicule atheism.
Again, this shows your ignorance of the subject. Civilizations were uniting couples long before religion hijacked the uniting process and made a religious ceremony out of it. Do you recognize marriages of other religions? Do you recognize Hindu weddings or Jewish weddings? Or do just Christian weddings count?
That is the Christian belief, yes. Fortunately for the rest of society, Christian dogma and doctrine cannot be forced on everyone else. We have the secular and non-religious constitution to thank for that.
You can explain it anyway you want, but until you have rationally investigated the phenomenon and eliminated all other possibilities, then you are just chalking it up to "god did it" or "ghosts did it" without any reason to do so. Doors close all the times by themselves - it doesn't take a breeze to do it. Vibrations from passing vehicles can cause doors to close. A shift in a house's foundation can cause doors that used to stand ajar to suddenly start closing on their own. Did you even investigate any of these possibilities or did you jump immediately on the supernatural bandwagon?
No, you're not all just loony. What everyone does is immediately jump to the supernatural explanation without bothering to even investigate any other possibility. There are many unexplained things - but nothing is unexplainable. Most people don't understand that concept. Most of the unexplained events in my life have been explained since I actually started to investigate them and look for explanations within physics and the natural world. Most people would rather be lazy and chalk them up to ghosts and god. Suit yourself if mental laziness is your forte. Shelli Rebuttal #004:
I said my door opened, not closed, by itself. My bedroom is on the second floor, and we live on a quiet street. It opened slowly as if someone was pushing it lightly. It didn't open a crack. It opened halfway. Regarding your comment about my "religion prozac", medicine may heal the body but not the soul.
I have been on Prozac, Clonopin, Zyprexa, Buspar, and Risperdal. Now I have been on Celexa for a year. I have seen doctors since I was 19, and pills just were never enough. Like I said, they heal my "chemical imbalances", but it does not heal the hurt I still feel deep down in my soul. I am not an angry person. I just can't believe so many people out there are so blind to the love and presence of God. True devoted Christians are the nicest people you will ever meet because the character of Jesus just shines through them. It is for real. I support the Franciscan Missions, St. Matthew's Churches, Life-Study Fellowship, ASPCA, the US Humane Society, Defenders of Wildlife, World Wildlife Fund, and PETA....all on limited income while I have been recovering from years of emotional and spiritual hell. I am an actress and writer, too. Before I die, the whole world will know my name, and they will remember me as a gifted, compassionate person...a humanitarian. I possess a strength and grace that can only come from one source...God. Not "Bible God", just God. I am waiting for the day when an atheist actually goes out and makes such blessed contributions to the world. Usually, they are too busy spitting at it and everyone in it....especially Christians who put other's needs in front of their own. We don't deserve that. Response to Shelli #004:
Opened or closed it doesn't matter. Doors creep for very natural reasons. Your unwillingness to investigate a rational cause and to jump on the supernatural is just another indication of your need for religion. You need it - you need the simple answer and reassurance that comes with believing that fairy tales are true.
Actually, in my experience it is the "true devoted Christians" that are the nastiest people I've ever known. It is the moderates that are friendly. I find this to be the case in every religion. The Fundamentalists are the troublemakers, the haters, the terrorists and all those other nasty things. It is the "true devoted Christian" that blows up abortion clinics and assassinates abortion providers. It is "true devoted Christians" that beat up homosexuals and sometimes kill them. It is "true devoted Christians" that harass non-Christians and threaten them and plant crosses in their yards.
Obviously we've reached a point beyond just a need for religion. We're dealing with a need for recognition and sympathy. You didn't get it from me and so you're pissed off. That's fine. Stay on your meds and I wish you the best in recovering. Based on your past, your "testimony" and what you say I can assure that you are, indeed, a "true devoted Christian."
Not all of you do - but many of you do. Shelli Rebuttal #005:
True, devoted Christians do not kill, hate, or do anything that you have mentioned. We follow the Ten Commandments to the best of our ability. People who kill and hate are not Christians, though they may claim to be. They are just evil and have a distorted view of Christianity. I don't need your sympathy or anyone else's. I just want to serve the Lord by doing good to all. I know what I have experienced in life. I know what the truth is. If you don't, you will find out eventually. All through my life, people have let me down, but God never has. Face it, you have no concept of what the meaning of life is, and no rationality of science will ever explain why we came into existence in the first place. Go chew on that one for a while. People in this world have to choose to be good, or evil will prevail. It certainly won't be God's fault. It will be ours alone. That is why we have free will. Until someone explains why the universe began, why our bodies are so intricately designed, why our organs communicate so well, why there is such a diversity of species, why miracles happen.....then I will believe that life was all just a big random "accident". It just isn't rational to believe that life created itself.
Where are all the Christians you said who have committed heinous crimes of murder? I can't think of any practicing Jesus-loving Christians who have been serial killers or rapists. Face it, the worst villains in human history have been anything but Christian. Just out of curiosity, do you actually tell little children that there is no God or Heaven and that they are going to end up in a cold box six feet under? That is just cruel...and a lie. What would an atheist even say to a terminally ill child lying in the hospital, taking his or her last breaths of life? I think the last thing anyone would want is an atheist at their bedside. I have actually visited an atheist chatroom and a Christian chatroom. Here is what I learned from observing the conversations in both groups:
Simply put, I felt much happier in the Christian chatroom, and I was almost in tears in the atheist one. Your actions don't make you a Christian. It is what is in your heart. There is also nothing more precious than a little child pointing to his or her heart and saying, "Jesus is right here." GOD BLESS :) Response to Shelli #005:I'm not sure where you are getting your information from, but we'll clear up your mistakes. First of all, I never played the "guilty by association" card as you have done. The reason I didn't play it is because we are all "guilty by association." For every belief, religion, creed, race, ethnicity, philosophy, etc, there is someone out there in history past that has done bad things as a representative of that particular component. That doesn't mean it was the driving force or the reason for the heinous activity, though. For example, while Pol Pot was an atheist, he wasn't killing anyone "for atheism." However, during the Crusades, the murderous hordes were specifically killing people "for Christianity." But, I'm not going to play the guilty by association card as you have done, because your pile stinks just as much. However, I did want to clear up a few of your errors. Adolf Hitler was a Christian. He was a practicing Lutheran. He wanted to destroy the hierarchy of the church because he thought it was too liberal. Hitler wanted the church to be more literal in its views of the Bible. Hitler thought that by killing the Jews he was finishing the work of Christ. That is why he also killed homosexuals - because the Bible said they were an abomination. Timothy McVeigh was not an atheist, either. He was involved in a state militia that embraces Christianity. He prayed the night before he bombed the federal building and prayed after he was captured, as was reported by the correctional officers and the minister that visited him in prison. Okay, what the hell, since you've thrown out the guilty by association card - I'll throw it out too.
The list goes on of course. That is why we don't play the "guilty by association" card - because we can all be found guilty by such. That is why we judge not by the actions of the past, but by the theology itself. Is the theology sound? When things of the past come up, they come up in a theological context: What about the theology caused such events? Of course any time someone points out the heinous acts of Christians then you just say, "They weren't REAL Christians" or "They weren't TRUE Christians." How do you know that they weren't the real and true ones and that you're not the fraud? After all, the Bible is full of acts committed in the name of God and Jesus that are equally and more heinous than any man has done. A terminally ill child that is lying in the hospital will hear from an atheist what that child wants to hear. If the child believes he or she is going to heaven, then the atheist has the moral upstanding to let that child die thinking just that. When my children asked about death they were told what everyone believes. They were told about Christian beliefs, Islamic beliefs, Hindu beliefs, Buddhist beliefs and more, as well as the scientific facts. Once they have all the information then they can make an educated decision on their own. You know, one thing you told me a while ago is that because of my interest in Christianity that I must be seeking Jesus. Yet, what I'm reading from you is that you have a very keen interest in atheism. You visit atheism web pages, you enter atheism chat rooms and you engage in conversations with atheists. Sounds to me like you're asking the right questions. You'll be an atheist in no time. Shelli Rebuttal #006:
I WiLL NEVER BE AN ATHEIST, AND I AM NOT THE FRAUD. I FOLLOW THE TEACHINGS OF JESUS.....NOT MEN. Those horrible people that committed such heinous crimes were not Christians. They are the frauds. How can you even try to rationalize what Hitler did? He was a madman. He was a Christian that wanted to kill Jews? Well, I guess he really WAS a fraud because Jesus is a Jew. Therefore, if he hated Jews, he hated Jesus. That means he was not a Christian. Jesus Christ preached love and respect for all mankind. That is the truth, and I am sticking to it. And you think I will be an atheist how??????? I am no fool. Response to Shelli #006:When you start emailing me in all caps and 36-point font, I realize that your emotions have gotten the better of you and you can no longer engage in intelligent conversation. I wish you the best of luck in your efforts to end your psychological issues and emotional scars from your past. Whether you do this via modern medicine or religion is of no interest to me - as long as you achieve what you want to achieve. The best of luck,
Shelli Rebuttal #007:
Mr. Scott, I pose a more interesting question for you and all others out there who claim that "religion" is the cause of the world's problems. Why are MOST of the crimes out there perpetrated by men? Why are men (or boys) shooting up our schools, blowing up our buildings with bombs and planes, forming heinous gangs like the Ku Klux Klan, murdering abortion doctors, torturing our precious animals, teaching children how to be terrorists, starting world wars, murdering homosexuals, raping women, kidnapping and sexually molesting children, distributing pornography, executing prisoners, polluting our oceans with toxic chemicals, and exterminating endangered species??? When you really get down to the bottom of it, the world would be a much more peaceful place if all the men just vanished off the face of the earth. Religion vs Men Response to Shelli #007:
Since women have been "liberated," the numbers of crimes committed by women are now on the rise significantly. Most states have had to build larger prisons to house their female inmates (I work with the Department of Corrections, so I can attest to this personally). Perhaps the issue is not sexuality or even sexual orientation, but more importantly, an issue of access and equality? Or for that matter, why is it that most crimes seem to be committed by African-Americans? Perhaps you are asking the wrong question? Of course I realize what you are trying to do. While admirable, that's about all it is - it's still a straw man and has no bearing on the issue at hand.
Because the Christian kids are picking on them and being bullies? The football team that prays before each game is the same team that beats the kid up and teases him. Of course it's interesting to note that today's most notorious school shooters, those from Columbine, attended church. Hmm...
Religion does that and female suicide bombers are on the rise. Only a belief in an afterlife could motivate someone to commit suicide in such a manner, and that stems from religion and religious fundamentalism. There are no atheist suicide bombers.
You mean the Christian hate group? You do know that the KKK is a Christian organization, don't you? You do know that the KKK uses the same phrase that you do, "Jesus is a relationship, not a religion?" The largest hate groups in America are Christian organizations.
Christians do that, too. The only reason ever given by Christian terrorists for blowing up abortion clinics and assassinating abortion providers is... the Bible and Jesus.
I'm not sure what context you're referring to here. If you mean through animal testing, then that's not a crime, so it doesn't apply. If you mean through sacrifices, etc, then it is religion that calls for the sacrificing of animals on an altar. The Bible is full of not just examples of animal sacrifice, but specific instructions on how to do it - on how to make an "odor pleasing to the Lord."
Again, you have to blame religion on this one. There are no atheist suicide bombers or terrorists. There are Christian terrorists, Islamic terrorists, Hindu terrorists, Jewish terrorists, and others, but no atheist terrorists. Terrorism is a faith-based initiative.
Most conflicts around the world revolved around religion or a creed that became religious in nature (such as fascism, for example). The issue is brainwashing and indoctrination - keeping the flock in line. Of course the main reason that men are the cause of wars is because women were not in positions of power to start any. Of course we can't forget Joan of Arc, right?
Christians are doing that. Muslims are doing that. Religion is doing that - it is religious bigotry that causes such violence against homosexuals and lesbians. Of course I would remind you that there have been several instances of lesbians being beat up by Christians girls, especially in locker rooms in schools.
Funny, but you're 20 times more likely to be raped in the United States than any other country in the world. Supposedly this is a "Christian nation," which is puritanical in nature when it comes to human sexuality, and yet our rape instances are astronomical. Go where human sexuality is open and the immoral puritanical attitude is nothing more than a memory of the Dark Ages, the rape numbers are extremely low. When I lived in Italy we never heard of rapes and child molestation from the local Italians (even with all the priests and bishops walking around Catholicville). When we did hear about it, it was usually an American that did it. There have been instances of women raping women, and even women raping men. But in a sexually repressed, puritanical society, one will see an increase in rapes. One way to discourage that is to legalize prostitution; it's a way to decrease testosterone overbuild.
You mean like Catholic priests and pastors? The last eight documented cases in Alabama have been molestations of children by priests and pastors in churches around the state.
Pornography is not a crime, so I'm not sure how it fits in your statement. According to Playboy Magazine, the majority of rentals of pornography videos are by women, not men. Go figure...
The largest supporter of the death penalty is the religious right. The Bible is clear about stoning people to death and the phrase "eye for an eye" is a popular one from that violent book. The execution of prisoners in Texas is practically a religious experience for them down there. Christianity and other religions have pushed the execution of prisoners for a long time. Ironic that Christianity pushes the execution of prisoners, considering they always complain about Christians being executed as prisoners during the reign of Rome (remember the lions?).
Maybe you should ask Jerry Falwell this question. He has said repeatedly that Christians should not concern themselves with the environment. Why would he say that? He says it because the belief that Jesus is coming back makes caring for the earth irrelevant. Why care for the Earth if Jesus is coming back to make the place peaceful for 3,000 years? Why bother tending the oceans and forests if the rapture is going to happen any minute now? This form of Armageddonomics has led to where we are today: a planet festering with people that don't care about because they are waiting for their messiah to return. Did you know that according to religious polls and environmental polls, that the majority of environmentalists are not Christians? Most environmentalists are spiritualists (New Age, Wicca, Buddhism, etc).
See the answer to the above. Why care about endangered species if Jesus is coming back? Again, most conservationists are not Christians - they tend to be those that are in-tune with Mother Nature and worshipers of earth-centered religions such as Wicca.
Of course that would only last for about 100 years before the species died off from the lack of sperm. Men were in power for the last eons, so they were the ones making the decisions. Now that women are gaining equality worldwide, you will begin to see more and more of these things attributed to women. It's not an issue of aggressiveness based on the sexes, but an issue of power availability. Why do you think all the leaders that are mentioned in the Bible are men? The Bible says that women are to be subservient to men and to not talk in church. Do you follow that rule? If you've ever talked in church or shown your hair in church then you're going to Hell, because you're an abomination unto the Lord. Sucks to be a woman in Christianity... where women's rights are still an ongoing issue. The real issue is religion, either deified or not. You can call it a "relationship" all you want, but the blood spilt in the name of that relationship is measured in tons, not pints, or ounces. Perhaps you can clear something up for me? The Bible Belt, which is the most religious section of the United States, is also the most troubled section of the United States. The Bible Belt has the highest murder rate in the country, the highest rape and molestation rates, the highest divorce rates, the highest high school dropout rates, the highest infant mortality rates, the highest drug use rates, the highest teen pregnancy rates, and the highest misdemeanor crime rates. Why do you think that is? Shelli Rebuttal #008:
Email #001 (in 18 font) Mr. Scott, let me put it to you this way. If a person does not walk in the ways of Jesus Christ, he or she is not a Christian. Period. Have you ever heard of wolves in sheep's clothing? That would classify the KKK and others who claim that they are killing in the name of Jesus. Jesus never commanded anyone to murder....but to love and respect your fellow man. It is that simple. I don't know why people nowadays have to make Christianity such a complex issue. Believe me, America is NOT a Christian nation whatsoever. No way. I wish it was. If America was a Christian nation, there would be no murder (including abortion), rape, adultery, etc. You want to see a poster Christian woman, just look at me. I don't drink, don't smoke, don't do drugs, don't have sex, and I support wonderful charities:
My love and kindness comes from the Lord. I commit all my acts of love to the Lord. I give in His Holy Name. There is no such thing as murder in the name of Jesus. That is an abomination of everything that He stands for. Those kind of people are driven by Satan. False prophets. Wolves in sheep's clothing. Going to church does NOT make you a Christian. It is the love and compassion that dwells in the human heart. Christianity is a relationship with Jesus Christ....not a religion. Religion is man-made. Christianity is the only faith that is not man-made. Religions are ungodly. My friend, you need to re-read the New Testament. There is no such thing as "an eye for an eye" in Christianity. I feel sorry for you that you think prostitution should be legalized. That is an ugly profession that inevitably spreads disease and destruction to everyone. You know what suppresses sexual desires and sin? Focusing on the Lord Jesus Christ AT ALL TIMES! Take your eyes away from Him, you will most likely sin (Catholic priests). By the way, what is this about not talking in church? Everytime I have been to a church, I have seen nothing but joyful, smiling faces engrossed in pleasant conversations. It is great to be a Christian woman! I feel so free and at peace! It must really suck to be an atheist because whether you know it or not, you have no assurance of anything. You are looking at the world through a cardboard box with peep holes. You aren't seeing the big picture. There is so much evidence of God's presence, how can you possibly miss it? A fool says in his heart there is no God. God Bless you, Mr. Scott. Remember to put others' needs before your own. Support as many charities as you can. We are here to serve, not to be served. You become rich by giving. So whether you live on 200 dollars a year or 100,000, GIVE. The Lord will bless you for it. What you give will be returned to you hundredfold. AMEN. Email #2 Oh, I forgot. Just wanted to remind you that the two Columbine shooters were both atheists. They asked Cassie Bernall if she believed in God or not. She said 'yes', and they blew her head off. God Bless her precious soul. Email #3 And as for torturing animals, I am mainly referring to the horrible people who are randomly killing stray dogs and cats, even precious household pets. These perpetrators are always men, and these ARE crimes punishable by law. I should know. I am an ASPCA and Humane Society member. We are also working to stop animal testing COMPLETELY. It is a heinous, needless practice. Email #4 Accountability is up to the age of 12. Then you are responsible for your actions in the eyes of God. Email #5 Believe me, Mr. Scott, your answers are far more entertaining than anyone else's. I hope you go to the movies a lot because you will soon be seeing a lot of me. I never had a mental illness. I have an autistic spectrum disorder called Asperger's Syndrome, which incurs such symptoms as depression. Do a search on the Internet, and you will find evidence that we are very highly intelligent and have ultra-sensitivity. Basically, we have sensory abilities far beyond the average person. We have a superior sense of hearing and of touch. I cannot attend concerts because of the noise. I don't like the feel of baggy clothing, so I am always wearing tank tops and shorts around the house. No socks ever. So, I can tell you for certain that there is another dimension in existence beyond this one. Again, I have never had a mental illness. I am not schizo, manic, or whatever. I am a perfectly logical and sensible person. This is not a laughable condition. It originates in childhood. No known cause. I am kind of offended that you were mocking me on your website. Do you normally make fun of "autistic" people who know a heck of a lot more than you ever will?
OH, AND I OFTEN WRITE IN CAPS AT 36 FONT BECAUSE I THINK IT IS FUN. SOMETIMES I DO IT IN DIFFERENT COLORS.
So, stop analyzing everything about me. It is, however, very entertaining to see how "OFF" you are on just about everything. If you are so smart, scientific, and able to read people with that wacky atheist mind of yours, describe what I look like. Email #6 I am also offended that you were entertained by my accounts of being raped, abused, and suffering from eating disorders. Typical atheist. Arrogant and sarcastic, always getting your kicks out of mocking nice people, especially Christians. There is this thing in Christianity called being humble. We admit to everyone that we don't know all the answers, but we trust God anyway. It is called faith. You atheists think there is no higher intelligence out there than man, and you claim to know everything. Science is all speculation and proving one's theories. What you can't find a logical answer to, you make up. There were no witnesses to the creation of the universe. At least people witnessed Jesus. Stop the arrogance, and ask God for a new purpose in your life. "Pride goeth before destruction." "You reap what you sow." P.S. A new whale species was just discovered. How did science miss that??? Remember the coelacanth? Fisherman caught one when it was believed to be extinct for millions of years. Even the giant panda was believed to be a myth until they were discovered. So, how can you say for certain that there is no God and call people crazy when they have experienced evidence of an afterlife, even though you have not? Apparently, they have seen the truth, and you haven't. There have been so many reports of people being miraculously cured of terminal illnesses, and the doctors even confirmed that medically, there had been no hope for their recovery. I am talking about people who were stricken with cancer all over their bodies, and once they were prayed for, immediately began to heal. Again, do some research on these accounts. Email #7 You said:
Then you say:
Why do you say you don't hate theists, and then a few sentences later, you say you do? You either hate, or you don't. Which is it? Proves my theory that atheists are haters. As a Christian, I absolutely do NOT like sin at all. However, I still love the people. We are taught to love our enemies but not necessarily what they do. Personally, I don't think love and hate can exist inside the same heart.
Email #8 You said:
Studies have shown that premarital cohabitation and sex increase the likelihood of a divorce. When you fall in love with someone, it is unconditional...which means that you still love the other person no matter how many bad habits they have or how mediocre they are in bed. Those are petty things that can be improved. As I always say, "Don't wait for the one you think you can live with, but wait for the one you cannot live without." That is true love....something atheists cannot even comprehend. You have demonstrated that by your own foolish words.Another note to you: Multiple partners before marriage can lead to serious emotional scars that may very well be carried into the relationship with your spouse and may ultimately destroy it. Whereas, a virgin will have no such "ghosts of past lovers" hovering over her or his head. That is a major plus for the relationship! It is easier to split with someone that you haven't slept with than with one that you have. Sex was designed by God for the marriage bed only. It all makes sense. Visit some distraught pregnant teens sometime who do not know who their babies' fathers are. Think of all the pain suffered by them, their families, friends, and future children. A person who waits till marriage will never have to deal with that kind of mayhem and heartbreak. The children are then at least given a chance of a stable homelife with a mother and a father under one roof and committed to each other. You said:
Where did you get that bullcocky? Christian couples are always talking and discussing their problems. I say, "The family that prays together stays together." So you are saying that all the couples in marriage counseling are atheists??? Nope. You said:
You are nuts. Children are the innocent ones. Jesus said, "Verily I say to you, whosoever does not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein." Apparently, you skipped some important verses in the Bible that answer those questions. Response to Shelli #008:
That’s something Christians tend to say in order to dismiss the actions of other Christians. The bottom line is that the Bible is clear on what one must do in order to get to Heaven: accept Christ as your Lord and Savior and acknowledge his sacrifice on the cross. That’s it. If you accept those two things then you are a Christian. Christians like you can try to twist it all you want to dismiss the actions of your brethren, but it is to no avail because we see through your smokescreen and see Christianity for what it is.
The “No True Scotsman” joke is banging around in my head right now. The KKK, Christian Identity, and Army of God (just to name three of many) are proud of their Christianity and they fit the criteria of Christians – they accept Christ as their Lord and Savior (within the Trinity) and acknowledge the sacrifice he made on the cross for their sins and the sins of mankind. That’s all that is required. They quote the Bible to back up their views and terrorist actions.
There’s a simple reason for that – it is. The NT is so full of contradictions and inconsistencies that it can’t be anything but complex. The majority of Christians don’t know the first thing about the faith that they profess belief in. Did you know that over 70% of Christians polled said that Rev. Billy Graham gave the Sermon on the Mount? Most Christians have no idea how the Bible came to be or why the Sabbath is on Sunday (the day of the Sun not son). It’s pathetic how little Christians know about their religion and faith. Of course if they knew all of those things they wouldn’t be Christians any more – they’d be atheists or at least deists if they couldn’t shake the psychological crutch of a need for an invisible man in the sky.
You are correct, America is not a Christian nation, but it is a nation that is composed mostly of Christians. Historically, nations that are theocracies have been absolute disasters. At no time in history has a theocracy survived – and the time they were around was extended only through violence and bloodshed. It doesn’t matter what religion the theocracy is based on – they don’t survive. In modern times, the most secular nation in the world, Norway, also has the lowest murder rate in the world, lowest rape rate in the world, etc. A country of mostly atheists is the most civil and moral nation on the planet. The most religious areas of the world are the most violent areas of the world. Even in the microcosm that we call America are prime examples of this. There are more crimes committed in the religious parts of America than in the more secular parts. The Bible belt has the highest divorce rates (Barna Research), highest murder rates (Bureau of Justice), highest teen pregnancy rates (Planned Parenthood), highest drug use (ATF), highest high school dropout rate (Department of Education), highest non-violent crime rate (Bureau of Justice), and highest rape rate (Bureau of Justice).
Does this mean you don’t subscribe to the virtues of Christian humility? Does posing in a bikini make you a poster Christian woman (yes, I know about that)? Does your bragging about becoming a movie star and author fit into the humbleness that Jesus called for?
Some people visit Fantasy Island... you visit Fantasy Planet. Earth to Shelli... come in, Shelli! The followers of Jesus have committed heinous crimes against humanity and all variations of the species. The war on infidels, women, slaves, and others have cost the world billions of lives. I can hear you now saying, “But they weren’t true Christians!” Spin it any way that makes you feel better, but the bottom line is that all the sword-wielding, bomb-toting, shot-taking, evil-talking, and anti-humanity killers for Jesus were TRUE Christians in every sense of the word.
What about Matthew 10:34? “Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.” What about Luke 22:36? “Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.” Or how about Romans 13:4, which specifically says Jesus is the bearer of the sword? “For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid, for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.” What about Revelation? Is not the act of killing millions of non-believers an act of murder? Is this not the same mentality of the Crusaders – to kill the infidels?
That’s so ludicrous that I’m actually having a hard time thinking of a response. I’m simply flabbergasted that you would even think that Christianity is not man-made or not a religion. Do you go to church? Do you sing hymns? Do you chant prayers? Do you read scripture aloud? If you do any of this then you are engaging in organized religion: organized by man. The religion of Christianity is based entirely on laws and rules set down in a dogmatic book – the very foundation of religious rituals and rites.
Funny, I was thinking the same thing about you.
I can’t believe you would dishonor your Savior like that. Who do you think Mary Magdalene was? Jesus never admonished her for her prostitution and never said anything bad about her for engaging in prostitution. If you’re going to spout off, you should at least know your facts. Where prostitution is legalized and controlled, the spread of disease is seriously decreased because of regulations and medical requirements. Nevada is a good example. Where illegal prostitution is occurring (on the street corners), disease is still a problem. Where legal prostitution is occurring (in the brothels), disease is almost non-existence. The reason that it is almost non-existent is because all the girls are given medical exams and tests and regulations are adhered to that keep both the women and men clean and safe.
Yeah, I can see where focusing on Jesus at all times could suppress your sexual desires. I’m getting ready to make love to a woman and I can’t, because I’ve got the face of Jesus stuck in my head. Who can become aroused when Jesus’ face is starting at you? It’s almost as bad as putting the face of Barbara Bush on your lover – it’s an instant premature ejaculation prevention kit. Why would you want to suppress your sexual desires, anyway? Did not your Bible-God tell you to go forth and bare fruit? Did not your Bible-God make a man for a woman and a woman for a man? Why did your Bible-God make sexual encounters feel good if he didn’t want you to have sexual intercourse? Why did your Bible-God make a penis and vagina if they weren’t meant to interact with each other? Sex feels good for a reason. What is it with the Christian hang-up on sexuality?
I said that if YOU talked then you are an abomination unto God and going to Hell because you have violated biblical law. You are a woman – a lesser human in the eyes of Christianity. You are to be submissive. Your very defense of your Bible-God in these emails is a transgression against your Bible-God. A male should be doing this, not you. Haven’t you read your Bible completely? If you had you should remember the laws for women. You, as a woman, are not allowed to talk in church – you are not permitted to speak at all. 1 Corinthians 14:34 says, “Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.” < |